Podcast Transcript

• Dr. Chavez

  0:09

  So welcome we are about to interview one
  0:14

  of my most favorite people uh this is Jordan Kocon who is a student presently
  0:22

  at NMSU but he's about to um move to Rochester New York to work on his uh PhD
  0:31

  clinical practice so before he left I wanted to make sure I had an opportunity
  0:36

  to sit with him and introduce you to him and and interview him because he's a
  0:42

  very valuable uh member of this community and I hope he comes back at some point.
  Jordan
  so do I.
  Dr. Chavez
  and shares his
  0:51

  uh his incredible wisdom and sensitivity with the community so I want to give
  0:58

  turn it over to you to give us a just a little bit of a introduction like who are you where
  1:05

  where did you come from and anything else you'd like to share.
  Jordan
  certainly thank
  1:10

  you so much Dr Chavez so my name is Jordan Kocon I'm a fifth year doctoral candidate at New Mexico State University
  1:18

  I am coming to the final stages of getting my PhD in counseling psychology
  1:24

  and as you had mentioned I'm just about to uh leave this lovely enchanting town
  1:29

  of Las Cruces to move to Rochester New York to complete this clinical internship so I came down to New Mexico
  1:35

  to uh complete my Graduate Studies I'm initially from Minnesota and the reason why I chose New Mexico and more
  1:42

  specifically New Mexico State University they were a graduate training program that offered to support me and the
  1:49

  education that I was privileged to have growing up with learning Spanish at a
  1:54

  very young age and so New Mexico State University and the counseling department they have uh
  2:00

  a graduate minor in Spanish counseling so what that means is in addition to receiving the education the training the
  2:07

  mentorship clinical opportunities to uh work in a counseling setting with
  2:14

  english- speaking individuals they provide all of those experiences and training in Spanish and that is a really
  2:20

  rare feature of Graduate Studies programs right now and that was
  2:26

  something that was really important to me to make sure that I would not squander the gift that my parents uh offered me
  2:33

  that education to speak another language and so that brought me here to Las Cruces where for the past four years I've been
  2:41

  uh completing my coursework and my education and working in the community in various uh therapeutic settings so
  2:49

  outpatient Private Practice within the school systems
  2:55

  and it's with a heavy heart that I will have to leave the space for a little bit.
  3:01

  I'm not looking forward to returning to the cold that's going to be a little bit rough but I'm really excited for this opportunity and,
  Dr. Chavez
  absolutely.
  Jordan
  I am first
  3:09

  and foremost really grateful and humble to be invited here to speak with you and to speak on this topic and so I hope
  3:16

  that as the conversation continues that um it provides a lot of benefit not only
  3:22

  to you but also to the patients and uh perspective clients in the future.
  Dr. Chavez
  and
  3:28

  that's actually why um I invited you um in the last 20 years since I've been
  3:34

  working with medical cannabis patients in this area noticed that there is a big gap in
  3:41

  terms of uh mental health care for patients especially patients who use
  3:47

  cannabis there's so much misinformation there's just lack of research there's a
  3:52

  deficiency of practitioners and um I find that you in
  3:59

  particular have a very balanced approach to what you're about to embark on in
  4:04

  your life as a career as a as a mental health practitioner um I think because
  4:10

  you're young and you're open and willing to explore uh the needs of the community
  4:17

  and especially cannabis users um I know you're not in private practice yet but
  4:23

  you've been researching and doing your due diligence and you know that uh uh
  4:30

  and I think you'd agree with me I should say that cannabis is not for everyone
  4:35

  and that those who do use it just as a as a part of the
  4:42

  responsibility issued upon them as a user that we need to help people learn
  4:50

  and um be guided because we were just talking earlier you and I
  4:56

  about why it is that people can get their medical card
  5:01

  with no guidance whatsoever uh the the rules of the Department of Health are very clear you're supposed to have an
  5:07

  established relationship with the patient uh for a reason you know because everybody's different and some people
  5:14

  are other medications some people don't even know how to use it and there's this
  5:19

  whole uh lack of um guidance and education so in your case as a clinical
  5:28

  you're going to be a clinic psych psych psychologist there's a big
  5:33

  difference so let's talk about that and from your experience what is the difference between uh well before we do that you
  5:41

  are you in agreement that guidance and education is vital to the use of cannabis.
  Jordan
  it is critical cannabis like
  5:49

  any other medication Xanax uh
  5:54

  Prozac you know the statins for blood pressure they need to be monitored they need to be prescribed by uh a medical
  6:02

  doctor they need to be monitored and of course education and guidance and
  6:08

  counseling is really important to maximize the therapeutic potential while
  6:13

  also safeguarding and reducing the likelihood for harming ourselves.
  Dr. Chavez
  in
  6:19

  terms of you your future as a practitioner um you see a great need for
  6:26

  uh guidance and education but you do know that in New Mexico the medical cannabis program uh the certifying
  6:35

  practitioner does not prescribe cannabis basically the certifying practitioners
  6:41

  role is to support the user um because
  6:46

  the benefits of cannabis have been proven to outweigh the
  6:51

  risks however in from my point of view as a practitioner and working with cannabis patients for over 20 years I
  6:59

  find that mental health uh is necessary and deficient would you agree?
  Jordan
  it is and
  7:07

  even looking Beyond uh like mental health and those who use cannabis there's a there's a deficit of mental
  7:16

  health practitioners and even access to some of these uh Services especially in
  7:21

  a place like here in Las Cruces in the Borderlands where there's a lot higher needs it is a very complex and nuanced
  7:28

  environment and so so the needs of Las Cruces of course are going to be different than the needs of New York and the needs of
  7:35

  Minnesota but Universal across all these bases is there is that
  7:40

  vital not necessity but recommendation that everybody should have a therapist therapy is a wonderful
  7:47

  tool to be able to support human beings and especially when we're receiving
  7:54

  psychotropic medications something like cannabis it's even more important to make make sure that we have that support
  8:01

  and a care system to uh provide help and Aid when we are
  8:06

  struggling.
  Dr. Chavez
  precisely and you know we live in a very stressful World um I
  8:12

  don't know anyone who doesn't have stress and
  8:18

  um since Covid that has also been kind of a uh you know people went into depression
  8:25

  and anxiety and the the social structure just was
  8:31

  very delicate at the time and uh and and
  8:37

  I agree with you that cannabis is a medicine and it's not just for fun I
  8:44

  mean there are recreational users many of us started as recreational users
  8:49

  however it is a medicine that has to be treated with that kind of respect
  8:55

  because not everybody's going to react to it different uh the same there there there's going to be people who have you
  9:02

  know bad experiences and I want to touch on anything you care to share about the
  9:08

  youth you know teenagers up to 25 30
  9:14

  years of age and how quickly they are changing over to using Vapor Vapes and
  9:20

  cartridges which is not the oldfashioned flower Medicine of the of our youth now
  9:28

  it is a very strong drug with 99% THC
  9:34

  sometimes do you want to touch on that?
  Jordan
  absolutely so circling back to what you said in the beginning that cannabis is
  9:40

  not for everybody while it is uh medication that's been present and
  9:46

  there's a lot of evidence both in the United States and globally going back thousands of years of its therapeutic
  9:53

  benefits it can be harmful for certain people and especially for young growing
  9:59

  Minds our adolescent youth so one of the things that is really important to note is that our bodies are not fully
  10:05

  developed when we turn 18 and we're uh in the eyes of the state or the government all of a sudden an adult your
  10:12

  brain continues to grow until well into your 20s I think some of the research
  10:18

  sites that your brain the last lobe to develop your frontal lobe where we use to
  10:24

  make uh decisions organize data.
  10:30
  Dr. Chavez
  uh critical thinking.
  Jordan
  critical thinking skills restraint our impulses and our urges that doesn't stop growing really
  10:37

  until around the age of 25 and cannabis is uh is a drug that
  10:43

  impacts our brain there's been studies that have shown it impacts our memory
  10:48

  and speaking of specifically adolescence there was a review that was done
  10:54

  in I want to say was there's been multiple reviews but it talked about you know using an cannabis like chronic
  11:01

  cannabis use in adolescence can impact uh the development of certain mental
  11:06

  health conditions like depression anxiety and even some Studies have shown it can be uh associated with increased
  11:14

  suicidal thinking and so it is extremely uh important to be aware of
  11:20

  this information because some people think that well it's a plant how much harm could it have the truth is while
  11:26

  you may not be able to overdose on it like something like fentanyl for instance or opioids or stimulate
  11:32

  medications it is very harmful and the lack of research
  11:38

  is is a huge problem right now because we don't know what we don't know and granted all kind of the information I
  11:44

  talked about and share today that is research that is subject to change the scientific process is all about
  11:49

  replicating studies doing the investigations and as we gain more
  11:55

  information it gets updated and so what I'm saying today might be different is in 1 month 1 year 10 years down the road
  12:02

  there's a reason why in a lot of uh for instance in the PHD program when they're encouraging us to use research to only
  12:09

  go back 5 years 10 years maybe at the most because so much has changed in that
  12:14

  time and so particularly with adolescence where your personality is developing your body is growing you have
  12:22

  hormones your brain is uh a Confluence of all these different drugs and
  12:29

  neurotransmitters and so something like cannabis could have a very harmful impact on a developing brain and we
  12:36

  don't know to the extent of that because there aren't very many longitudinal studies and that means that you're
  12:43

  working with the same group of people over a long period of time so it could be 6 months it could be 10 years.
  Dr. Chavez
  so uh
  12:51

  that brings up a question in my mind has there do you know of any research that has been done uh in teenagers it
  13:00

  seems like what we hear is that teenagers start experimenting with drugs
  13:05

  and cannabis generally around Junior High sometimes sooner sometimes earlier
  13:12

  but excuse me generally around junior high so do you know of any research that has been done as to what it is that
  13:19

  might be happening in those young brains that they find themselves attracted to
  13:26

  the use of drugs?
  Jordan
  sure yeah so I've got kind of got my notes here that will help
  13:32

  kind of back up and ground this in the evidence so there's a lot of reasons why people might engage in cannabis use
  13:39

  around that time so it could be uh risk-taking Behavior they might
  13:44

  want to try something new something exciting there's the cultural taboo of oh I'm doing something bad this is cool
  13:51

  I as we both know there is a very much strong prevalence of cannabis use in
  13:58

  mainstream media within movies within pop culture within music that promote uh kind of the use of
  14:04

  it without talking about what we're talking about the health implications the public uh consequences both socially
  14:13

  psychologically and physically and so there is research that talks about some
  14:18

  adolescence might be driven to use cannabis to for instance to fit in to
  14:25

  help make friends to help maybe cope with depression anxiety pain
  14:32

  trauma um there's other research that has talked about adolescence being uh
  14:37

  using cannabis uh because they were encouraged to do so maybe by someone
  14:43

  within their family that oh well it's it's just a joint like it's what harm
  14:49

  could that do similar to maybe how some families might uh be turning the other
  14:56

  way to drinking at that that age so there's quite a bit of research that
  15:02

  would support uh the the notion that adolescents are
  15:10

  using cannabis are exposed to cannabis in a variety of settings in a variety of different um
  15:17

  ways but again it's always changing and so it might be different for youth these
  15:25

  days right now where we've got stuff like vape pens for instance which which might be seen as uh something less
  15:31

  harmful for instance than maybe smoking a joint for instance.
  Dr. Chavez
  the thing about a
  15:36

  vape pens and cartridges that I kind of find interesting is that many of the
  15:42

  users that I speak to they tell me they use it because it's a good way to be
  15:48

  discreet and they can get stronger uh
  15:53

  dosages from a couple of hits of a vape pen so that's something that also we
  15:58

  need to address is that the cannabis of today and especially in Vape pans and
  16:05

  cartridges is very strong it's not the same stuff in the the' 60s that was
  16:12

  maybe 5% THC now it's like 99% THC so
  16:18

  not only are you getting the cannabinoids but you're also getting uh solvents and propellants and other
  16:25

  ingredients that are used in extracting the medicine so yeah that has a great
  16:33

  impact on the brain and especially the young brains so there's got to be more um personal
  16:42

  responsibility the way I look at it is my job is to inform the patient educate
  16:47

  the patient but it's up to the patient to be responsible and to know what it is
  16:53

  that they're ingesting and that there are different um effects from the way
  17:00

  you ingest it if you smoke it if you eat it if you drink it if you apply it topically you know in the
  17:07

  past drinking alcohol was socially acceptable it still is so most people do
  17:12

  that but now the complication happens when you mix alcohol and cannabis
  17:18

  there's this thing called The Greening effect I don't know if you've heard of it but that's when you mix them in a
  17:25

  social setting and then you start having side effects like nausea vomiting and
  17:31

  paranoia heart rate goes up that's something that is a bad experience and
  17:36

  it has happened to many people but nobody talks about it right so do you
  17:42

  know about the greening effect?
  Jordan
  I have not known.
  Dr. Chavez
  they've done a lot of research about it and it's very common especially
  17:50

  among uh beginner users who don't know they mostly have been drinking alcohol
  17:55

  socially and now they mix it yeah wow yeah that's a whole other level and then
  18:02

  there's the uh from my experience working with younger people the medical
  18:07

  program you have to be at least uh 18 to be a medical patient in the recreational
  18:12

  world you have to be 21 well 18 to 21 that's still a big part of someone's
  18:19

  life where their brain is still developing right and so to just think
  18:24

  that it's okay to just go to a dispensary and buy whatever you want and
  18:30

  medicate yourself however you want without any guidance is a little bit dangerous especially for the younger
  18:37

  ones they tend to think that it's okay to get in the car drive down the road while they're smoking well that's not
  18:44

  legal that's illegal.
  Jordan
  absolutely and to be very clear it's a medication for so
  18:52

  many people you wouldn't want to uh encourage uh for instance a patient
  18:59

  taking like an anxiety medication something like Xanax to pop a Xanax and then go drive and operate heavier
  19:05

  Machinery absolutely not it impacts our cognitions it impacts our reaction time it impacts our ability to make critical
  19:12

  decisions that is also true of cannabis that just because it's seen as maybe uh
  19:20

  a less harmful drug to some compared to alcohol compared to opioids compared to
  19:27

  other substances does not mean that it can cause tremendous harm if used
  19:32

  irresponsibly and especially when we have you know access to extremely potent
  19:39

  uh doses like the cartridges for instance or waxes that is very dangerous because it
  19:48

  has a stronger effect which could in some ways increase the likelihood of an
  19:53

  adverse effect if you are self-medicating and not really thinking about what are those other consequences
  20:00

  what are the things I don't know that I don't know and you know adolesence they have a tendency to think that they're Invincible that we can bounce back from
  20:06

  everything exactly and there are significant consequences that can result from getting a DUI a DWI from being
  20:15

  charged with possession of drugs.
  Dr. Chavez
  how do you feel about cannabis eventually being um
  20:23

  covered by insurance is that something that uh you thought about?
  Jordan
  you know I've
  20:29

  had conversations with some clients who are cannabis uh cannabis users both
  20:36

  medical patients and non-medical patients and it's hard to say on the one
  20:42

  hand I think it is a wonderful thing that uh insurance would be able to subsidize these medications particularly
  20:48

  thinking about where we're located where in in New Mexico some people have to
  20:54

  make decisions about do I go out and get my prescriptions or do I pay my water bill do I buy groceries and so to be
  21:01

  able to have insurance cover that so that way it's not adding an extra cost an extra stressor to the patient I think
  21:07

  that's a wonderful thing and at the same time I also am a little bit afraid for the potential for abuse of the system by
  21:14

  bad faith actors where we see right now you can go get a medical cart they
  21:19

  advertise it for like 25 bucks but then they never follow back up with that person they don't receive that guidance
  21:25

  that education the training to identify what is therapeutic dose for themselves
  21:30

  and so for that way I think it it can be both it can be both a great benefit and
  21:36

  another tool for harm.
  Dr. Chavez
  yeah I mean for my in my ideal world if everything was you
  21:43

  know ideal I would say that having access to growing your own would be a
  21:49

  little bit more uh culturally acceptable because in the Hispanic culture herbs
  21:56

  are a very common part of our culture and um growing your own with
  22:04

  education you can really learn about the value of the whole plant not just smoking it and remember this plant has
  22:11

  been around for thousands of years and it was not smoked originally it was eaten it was used topically it was used
  22:19

  uh with oil and and there's evidence of that in the Old Testament um of being an
  22:25

  anointing oil so now uh you know the level of um cannabis in
  22:34

  the plant have to be addressed this is not just something for fun the negative side
  22:42

  the experiences that some patients have on the negative side are uh increased heart rate paranoia sweating uh you know
  22:51

  the uncomfortable kinds of side effects psychosis.
  Jordan
  psychosis hallucinations yes absolutely.
  Dr. Chavez
  yeah so uh
  23:00

  I don't know about insurance getting involved I don't think it's a great idea for the possibility of ab using the
  23:07

  system I think there's more education needs to happen just about what is the
  23:13

  plant what are all of the benefits of all of the plant not just smoking it I
  23:19

  mean I understand that smoking is the quickest way to get an effect but it's still harmful to your lungs.
  Jordan
  yeah you're
  23:27

  inhaling an irritant in that you're burning carcinogens and intaking those into your body and there is well
  23:33

  documented research about the health consequences and impact of intake and
  23:39

  carcinogens in our bodies.
  Dr. Chavez
  and what you said earlier about sometimes young people think they're invincible and so
  23:44

  when they're 20 years old they might not have lung issues but you smoke it all
  23:49

  the time and if you smoke cartridges you're doing more damage to your lungs by the time 40 50 you will have lung
  23:56

  damage that's the that's that's the reality of it so uh yeah it's I'm
  24:02

  honored to interview you because I I've gotten to know you and I know that you're very passionate about the
  24:10

  Hispanic community and sharing information in Spanish which the community needs and also that you are
  24:18

  going to be a clinical Psy psychologist with possibly prescribing abilities and
  24:25

  that is going to uh you know know that's going to give patients a whole other
  24:31

  level of Health Care Mental Health Care that they don't have now.
  Jordan
  correct yeah so
  24:36

  prescribing psychologist for those who do not know is uh licensed psychologist
  24:41

  so they've completed their PHD and then they've gone on to get additional training so they've gotten another
  24:47

  master's degree they've done more studies uh more research training to be
  24:53

  able to prescribe medications not just cannabis but psychotropic medications and that is a wonderful way to alleviate
  25:01

  some of the burdens on these healthare systems where sometimes patients have to wait three 6 9 even longer over a year
  25:09

  to go see a psychiatrist because there are so few providers and so as a mental
  25:15

  healthcare provider to be able to take away one extra step from my patients
  25:20

  that's a very wonderful tool and so I hope once I complete my education and
  25:25

  you know get licensed that uh if that is within the possibility of becoming a

  25:30

  prescribing psychologist I would love to take advantage of that opportunity if it arose yes that would be wonderful.

  Dr. Chavez

  now

  25:37

  the other question I have for you is what is your experience or what would you like to share about the the level of

  25:47

  uh support that mental health practitioners are willing to do today

  25:54

  for cannabis patients I know some of them are a little bit hesit and they think of it as a possibility of

  26:01

  another drug that the patient might be addicted to so what what is your experience of that talking to other

  26:07

  practitioners?

  Jordan

  it's very polarizing there is a lot of stigma that exists today

  26:13

  still about cannabis use you know within the diagnostic and statistic manual so

  26:18

  the magical book that psychologist psychiatrist might use to look at diagnosing a mental health disorder

  26:25

  cannabis use disorder is there cannabis withdraw cannabis intoxication other substances and so

  26:32

  there is yes so there is uh a lot

  26:39

  of uh both historical and and and

  26:45

  current barriers to having these conversations for a variety of reasons

  26:51

  and in some cases people are afraid to talk about these topics because of the

  26:57

  potential social consequences the potential consequences to maybe their business to their well-being in addition

  27:03

  to just you know the stress of confronting uh a topic that invokes a lot of feelings in people for a variety

  27:11

  of reasons and so my understanding is you know mental health clinicians when they're working in that uh therapy

  27:18

  setting that many are open to talking about cannabis use and exploring what

  27:23

  that use and uh looks like with their clients um

  27:29

  I don't know how much maybe like I don't think very many providers would be

  27:34

  comfortable disclosing or sharing kind of what their experiences are with their clients you know there's a lot of

  27:39

  research talking about not making the therapy session about yourself but some

  27:45

  providers might share parts of that uh identity part of their experience with their clients to help build that report

  27:51

  to build that connection and Trust to help educate their patients on the

  27:57

  importance of of being informed and holding a space to talk about it where

  28:03

  maybe the client the patient doesn't feel comfortable talking with their family members there is like that

  28:10

  security and confidentiality and and Hippa to protect those records but even so many

  28:16

  clinicians are still afraid to go into those conversations because it might be

  28:22

  outside of their scope of their competencies they might have their own personal beliefs or bias biases or

  28:28

  assumptions that it's a drug there's no therapeutic benefit and so they might even shut that down so it it goes both

  28:36

  ways.

  Dr. Chavez

  in your education so far have you U been exposed to cannabis education of

  28:43

  some kind?

  Jordan

  absolutely so at New Mexico State uh one of the classes that we take for our PhD program is addictions and so

  28:51

  we talk about cannabis use we talk about cannabis use disorder we talk about um

  28:57

  you know there's AA for Alcoholics Anonymous but there's also na Narcotics Anonymous there's people that uh in the

  29:05

  program talked about the harm reduction model so looking at cannabis as a way to get off of opioids for instance

  29:14

  and we also have a psychopharmacology class so we talk about cannabis use in

  29:20

  the biological biopsychosocial interactions of cannaboids uh THC within

  29:27

  our bodies so we do get Education and Training and then of course if uh if

  29:32

  folks were to go along and receive uh that education to become a prescribing

  29:37

  psychologist it gets a lot more education about that too however it's not necessarily a focal point of mental

  29:45

  health training programs and usually when it is included it's much more talked about within the addictions and

  29:52

  uh yeah usually just within the addiction realm.

  Dr. Chavez

  do you think it would be beneficial for for uh kids to be exposed

  30:00

  to Mental Health Care uh in in junior high Elementary School junior high

  30:07

  school high school because from uh from the past experience with the War on Drugs it was not um conducive to

  30:16

  educating the the young minds and now I

  30:21

  kind of see that um kids need mental

  30:27

  health care they need it at a young age we don't know what's going on in their homes we don't know if there's abuse we

  30:34

  don't know if there's alcoholism we don't we don't know and they are not telling they often go and find Cannabis

  30:43

  as a way to cope with what's going on in their lives do you think

  30:50

  that somehow in the educational model there was room for uh teaching the kids

  30:57

  the value of Mental Health Care?

  Jordan

  absolutely so I want to make sure I distinguish so I believe with 100% of my

  31:04

  heart and soul that educating young adults youth children

  31:10

  about mental health is critical right now we have movies like inside out and I believe inside out 2 is coming out

  31:16

  tomorrow I think wow it's an entire movie about emotions and emotion management yes and that is really

  31:23

  important to start exposing younger Minds to mental healthare mental health

  31:28

  treatment so that way as they continue to grow up they can develop emotion regulation skills they can develop

  31:34

  critical thinking skills to maybe say no I I don't want to go to this party right now I I do want to be studying I want to

  31:42

  go to college and if I'm partying and using substances that's not going to help me accomplish that goal exactly uh

  31:49

  I don't know about if there's like a magical age or a timeline of when would

  31:55

  be appropriate to start educating about that's something that I would defer to the research and something I just I

  32:02

  don't know enough about yet but it's very clear to me in my experience that educating children parents and families

  32:10

  about mental health is really important as I said earlier everybody should have a therapist.

  Dr. Chavez

  and do you think it's

  32:15

  lacking now I mean would you agree that it is?

  Jordan

  absolutely the research shows that it's lacking that typically when people

  32:22

  are coming to a therapist it's not out of a proactive move it's about addressing uh presenting concern that is

  32:30

  causing disruption to their ability to function daily especially when I would see the adolescence and youth in the

  32:36

  impatient Hospital settings they got there because of their parents who would bring them there and most of the time

  32:42

  they didn't want to be there themselves however many children many youth found a

  32:48

  little bit helpful to talk to somebody else outside the family to have somebody who would listen that would not provide

  32:56

  judgment that would valid validate their experiences and the stress of what it is

  33:01

  to go through in in their shoes.

  Dr. Chavez

  so on a personal note what inspired you to go

  33:09

  into mental health?

  Jordan

  it was not having access to a

  33:15

  mental health clinician that I felt I could connect with and Trust to talk about my own struggles kind of developing and going through life and so

  33:24

  recognizing when I connected with that first therapist who we clicked and it

  33:31

  felt comfortable I felt safe to be vulnerable to share the good the bad the

  33:36

  ugly it was a transformative experience and not only that it emboldened me to go

  33:43

  beyond just wanting to be a mental health provider but to incorporate the

  33:48

  other gift I was given which was speaking Spanish because there's a critical shortage of bilingual mental

  33:54

  health CL clinicians or even bilingual healthcare providers and so to me it

  33:59

  became a goal when I was in college I had a professor uh who uh she attended my uh

  34:08

  my senior thesis defense for my psychology class I made the mistake i' bit off more than I could you I thought

  34:15

  oh it would be great to in the spring semester not have any classes so I'll try and do both my thesises and the fall

  34:21

  term so my Spanish thesis and my psychology thesis that was a terrible idea I was far too stressed and so I had

  34:28

  to make a choice and so I focused on my psychology thesis at that time and went

  34:34

  back and did my Spanish thesis in the spring and so part of uh having the Grace from that Professor was having her

  34:41

  come watch what I was doing and so as she watched me prevent my thesis and topic uh it's a little bit unrelated to

  34:47

  what we're currently talking about it was about criminal uh psychology forensic psychology what she took away from that

  34:53

  was wow Jordan you have a very strong gift for taking these topics that could

  34:59

  be scary that could evoke strong feelings and making them friendly invit

  35:05

  approachable have you ever thought about blending that with Spanish no I had not

  35:12

  you know Spanish is my second language so I was always a little bit insecure and lacking in confidence of speaking

  35:20

  because it wasn't my native language but ever since that comment it

  35:25

  sparked and ignited a drive at hunger to to Really reflect and do something

  35:31

  about it and then once I was going through my master's program that's when now I was consuming the research and seeing wow there is massive gaps and

  35:42

  differences between the access of those who speak English to healthcare providers and those who are primarily

  35:47

  Spanish speaking or bilingual and then access to healthcare.

  Dr. Chavez

  and to uh add to

  35:53

  that culturally speaking de dealing with a uh Hispanic

  36:01

  culture adolescent compared to a American

  36:08

  Americanized adolescent you're dealing with different roots and

  36:15

  different I mean the Hispanic culture tends to be a little bit more reserved.

  36:21

  they don't talk about things.

  Jordan

  36:30

  like we don't air out our dirty laundry for the neighbors to see.

  Dr. Chavez

  exactly and um I see that in uh the patients that I

  36:37

  work with uh they're more res they're more reserved and they are not as

  36:43

  willing to talk about issues that are going on at home which is why I see a

  36:49

  lot of the younger Hispanic kids gravitating toward the use of drugs at a very young age because now they're being

  36:57

  American ized and the culture at home is

  37:02

  different so yeah the need for mental health care

  37:08

  is I mean it's it's very needed.

  Jordan

  it's very needed it's firmly established in

  37:15

  peer-reviewed research and I appreciate you bringing up that that distinction you know counseling uh a Hispanic

  37:22

  teenagers is very different than counseling uh somebody from the US who Maybe is not a first generation or

  37:29

  second generation you know there are cultural differences there are racial differences in terms of family values

  37:37

  beliefs the stigma of mental health care that's pretty ubiquitous kind of globally that we don't talk about our

  37:43

  feelings or at least in my experience with men it's only socially acceptable to display a few emotions anger and

  37:54

  happiness.

  Dr. Chavez

  the the thing I'd like to finish with is that there are very few practitioners of your

  38:02

  caliber with Spanish as a second language with your uh appreciation for

  38:09

  serving the patients needs and um I I

  38:16

  just want you to kind of give us a last final um something you want to

  38:24

  share to the community on why mental health is so important to

  38:32

  pursue?

  Jordan

  well I really appreciate your kind words I I am humbled to be again a part of

  38:40

  this interview and to be able to speak uh as a mental health kind of expert on this topic and so if I were to give our

  38:46

  listeners a takeaway message it is that it is okay to not be okay that having a

  38:54

  uh a therapist working with a counselor a psychologist a psychiatrist is no different than

  39:00

  working with your physical uh Primary Health Physician or a nurse it is

  39:07

  important we are social creatures we are meant to be working together with within

  39:14

  groups with others and there's a lot of benefits that can come from speaking to

  39:21

  somebody who had the training about mental health conditions there is a lot of benefits to having somebody who is

  39:27

  going to provide you that unconditional positive regard and support and so if you were to go and seek out some

  39:35

  Mental Health Resources or start working with a therapist note that just because

  39:42

  they're they're the therapist that they're working with you that they might have a specialized therapeutic modality

  39:49

  or approach one of the most important features of working with a mental health clinici is that trust and that

  39:56

  relationship that rapport and so sometimes that first person that you see might not be a good fit and

  40:02

  that's okay and you can say no you know maybe this isn't going to work out do

  40:08

  you have any referrals to another clinician that uh might be available to

  40:13

  work with me because it is really important to have that trust and that relationship especially when we're

  40:20

  confronting conversations and wanting to talk about something like maybe our use of cannabis and how it maybe is

  40:26

  hindering us reaching our goals or how it is helping us alleviate pain and so

  40:33

  for those who are on the fence about going to see a therapist I would

  40:38

  encourage you to lean into that discomfort the one thing that I keep being told in the program is to trust

  40:44

  the process to trust therapy to trust that this healthcare provider will be looking out for your best interest and

  40:50

  that just because you're seeing this therapist and maybe it's not working doesn't mean you have to stay you should

  40:57

  absolutely look for other providers and that could be challenging in an environment like this especially where

  41:03

  there's not a lot of bilingual clinicians and so I would say don't give

  41:09

  up hope that one searching and one of my favorite quotes that I would give my

  41:14

  clients is you know it's okay if that you don't have that hope or that belief today I'll hold on to that for you and

  41:19

  then when you're ready I'll give it back.

  Dr. Chavez

  perfect so I want to say that I

  41:26

  want to wish you well first of all and your new environment in Rochester and I

  41:33

  personally would love for you to come back so you have a home here Nika

  41:38

  isasa and you would be an asset to our community if you wherever you are but I

  41:45

  hope you return here and thank you for taking the time um to share who you are

  41:51

  and what you do and let's do this again uh during your time in Rochester we can

  41:57

  always catch up on zoom and continue learning what you're going through and

  42:05

  um you know what you're learning.

  Jordan

  well thank you so much Dr Chavez I I hope to

  42:11

  be able to return there's something to be said about the spiritual benefits the

  42:17

  physical benefits of the big blue skies the mountains the heat is a little rough in the summer however it's really nice

  42:24

  to be able to go out and go for a walk on January when normally in my hometown it

  42:30

  would be like 50.

  Dr. Chavez

  right with four feet of snow or something.

  Jordan

  exactly so I'm honored and humbled to be able to take part of

  42:37

  this conversation and I look forward to continuing this conversation yes while whether I'm in Rochester or wherever

  42:43

  else this journey takes me.

  Dr. Chavez

  well you got to live in the land of enchantment for the last four years and you are an

  42:50

  enchanting being that brings so much to any person who will benefit from your

  42:57

  services so thank you again for everything that you do and everything that you will do and come back and see us.